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The debate should go beyond whether or not AGW is a significant factor. The proposed solutions should get much more scrutiny. Let's suppose AGW is a given. Many of the "green" solutions appear to be counter-productive and detrimental both economically and environmentally (assuming more CO2 is bad). Take the "eat local" movement. In this Cafe Hayek example (http://tinyurl.com/34chxa ), it creates more CO2 than eating globally.

My impression is that many in the environmental movement reject capitalism and lose the best methods of incentives and accounting. When they lose this, they have no objective indicators on whether they are achieving or hurting their goals.

Steve, DR Roger Pielke's site was one of the very best in providing a rational view of what was going on in the AGW discussions. Just recently shut down for new content and comments it is still there as an archive. Found here:
http://climatesci.colorado.edu/

It was an active discussion on his site that lead to the discovery of the rotten conditions of the land temperature stations. If you are unaware of them that site is here:
http://www.norcalblogs.com/watts/weather_stations/

Above all Climate Science, Pielke's site, was an excellent counter point to the Real Climate pro-AGW content.

Pielke is not a skeptic, but a scientist espousing the scientific method. He has an excellent analysis of the IPCC methodology and content.

I recommend this blog by a young Czech physicist. Much of the blog is devoted to peer reviewed skeptical GW articles. It's the first thing that convinced me there was not a true consensus on GW. I felt like it was possibly all hearsay since everyone that claimed there wasn't a consensus didn't have adequate proof, and most physicists I work with seem to believe in GW.

While I agree that consensus doesn't necessarily prove something true, the point of your post seemed to lead to the idea that all discoveries are made against the grain by lone mavericks. While this may be the case with some stunning examples of history (like Einstein or Galileo), just because some scientist is 'fighting the man' doesn't mean he is right either.

The Manhattan Project and our early computers were each done by teams of scientists building on the modern (of the time) consensus in nuclear physics and computation. Einstein may have reinvented physics, but the people at the University of Pennsylvania that built the ENIAC didn't get there by rethinking how to square root numbers, they built on the consensus best way to do it digitally.

Andrew,

Engineering is usually based on consensus. Developing a new theory rarely is.

Of course just because most people (or scientists) disagree doesn't make a theory true, but nearly every new theory (not just the sexy ones noted above) faces fierce opposition from established scientists. Largely that is a good thing, scientists should be skeptical when some says 'no it really works like this' but beyond that, few experts in ant field easily accept that their previous understanding of how things work was wrong.

CR: Thanks, that is an excellent site. Too bad it's been retired, but I'm glad he's leaving it up so I can browse the archives.

Mike H: Which blog are you referring to?

"...the point of your post seemed to lead to the idea that all discoveries are made against the grain by lone mavericks..."

Andrew,

I respectfully submit that if you believe this was the point of the post, then you may have missed the real point.

Politically-motivated solutions to the impending disasters predicted as a result of AGW are never supported by their advocates through the use of actual science.

Instead we get nonsensical "reports" from wannabe global governance entities (http://www.agoyandhisblog.com/?p=214) and endless variations of the "consensus" justification for pouring money down the "Carbon Credits" hole and tearing down the advances of Western Civilization as we know it.

The point of the post was pretty clearly highlighted, and it's important because it's one of the basic principles that the Kyotozoans don't seem to get: (once again) Scientific truths are not determined by a show of hands.

Kind of reminds me of the national debt. A few economist (the late William Vickrey, Mosler, Wray to name a few) go against the mainsteam, saying govt debt is an economic necessity in a modern fiat money system with floating exchange rate regimes. As for me, I still believe the world is flat, and I want to pay higher taxes and have my U.S. savings bonds taken away to spur economic growth.

mark: Good one; and you have plenty of company, including belief in a flat earth, not just the masochism.

This Guy:

http://www.coyoteblog.com/

has done some great global warming skepicizing. Not Rabid, but very logical, and easy to read.

Sorry, just realized I forgot the link to that blog, here it is.

http://motls.blogspot.com/

Steve and all,

Let me second Coyote Blog on climate.

His take is that warming is happening and it probably has something to do with increasing the total amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.

However, warming is pretty small and will only get smaller as the system is a negative feedback loop. In any event, burning less to create CO2 is probably a good thing, but the rest of the supposed policy is bunk and the IPCC future estimates are about as good as a Soviet 5 year plan...

-Gene

Thanks Gene; badastronomy.com backs up that take on the science: warming is probably happening, how much is unknown, how much is caused by humans vs sun vs other factors is unknown. With so many unknowns, and so much of the current science dependent on secret computer models (at least one of them at taxpayer-funded NASA, ironically) built by scientists unwilling to open them up to peer review, I have to suspect other motives at play unrelated to the search for truth within the scientific method. The other motives I suspect are at play include power politics and government-grant cronyism, both of which depend to a great extent on the "show of hands".

As long as we're using Wikipedia:
The Scientific Consensus on Climate Change:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change#Scientific_consensus

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